'Free Will' and 'The Problem of Evil'
If it is permissible to apply beneficence to an occurrence that cannot be easily explained, it is just as necessary to apply malice, carelessness, or indifference to an adverse incident or phenomenon. You cannot pick and choose instances where the 'hand of God' intervenes or where you find God's will self-evident. The answer that "God works in mysterious ways" or "it is all in God's plan" does nothing to further resolve the argument. This is a circular answer that gets us nowhere. To believe in the literal translation of the Bible (as most Christians would have to agree), you must also have to agree, that any evil, or negative incidents in the world, are also caused by God's predetermination. The bible states: Believing the literal truth of these claims, one must infer that all human cause and effect is the pre-determined work of God. This biblical idea is antithetical to the belief that all humans are inherently born with free will. In "The Purpose Driven Life" by Rick Warren, this idea is only exemplified: As a Christian, I once nodded in coherence to these claims, yet somehow convinced myself that the freeness of human life was a plausible belief. Simply stating that "one can stray from God's plan," as many do, is disjointed. It is very evident in Biblical scripture that humans are in no way in control of their being. As a skeptic I fervently reject this premise. The idea of sin (similar to the idea of 'God's plan') also neglects to shift the blame of evil from God and onto man. If we literally interpret the passages of the Bible, we must accept the fact that our lives are pre-determined. Before we were born, salvation was bestowed rightly upon those who were chosen. We have not but the slightest control over our lives. If the belief in a theistic God is accepted and supported by the claims in the Bible, then we must not have free will and are in no way responsible for our actions, choices, and beliefs. Abortions and even doctor-assisted suicides must be part of God's grand scheme. This relieves doctors and patients of their responsibility--it must all be in 'God's plan.' If God is responsible for the good, he must also be as equally responsible for the bad."You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" (Psalm 139:16).
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified" (Romans 8:29-30).
"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation" (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
"Because God made you for a reason, he also decided when you would be born and how long you would live. He planned the days of your life in advance choosing the exact time of your birth and death...God also planned where you'd be born and where you'd live for his purpose. Your race and nationality are no accident. God left no detail to chance. He planned it all for his purpose...he planned it all with great precision...Nothing in your life is arbitrary. It's all for a purpose."
14 comments:
One of the explanations pertaining to part of your blog is that God sees our whole life He knows in advance what choices we are going to make. He gives us free will to make those choices. He has just has seen the movie before its written.
For instance your movie is going to play like this: when sweet, thoughtful Mikey Guzman was really trying to find out who and what God was, God loved it because mike was really searching for truth, and then God revealed Himself to Mike. The prophecies on Mikes life of one day praying over little children with brown heads that his mother talked about came true. Mike was a mighty man of God! :) Love ya and praying for you always!!!
I have long been a supporter of the "You can't pick and choose from the Bible" argument. In the same vein of your blog post, if the way you were created is the way God intended, and every choice you ever make is God's choice, then Homosexuality is also God's creation. Many religious people oppose religion saying it's unnatural, or not God's will or anything like that to say that it shouldn't be.
I wish that everyone thought the way you thought in this blog, life would be so much better for everyone. Great post, my friend.. Great post.
James
James,
God didn't create us to sin, but satan is there to temp us. Homosexuality is a choice along with other sexual sin, gluttony, achoholism... Sin is very enticing and exciting, but we are not animals, we have a free will and the ability to say no to it with God's help.
How can you say that love is a sin? Love, no matter who it is between, is natural. And no, I don't think that homosexuality is a choice. Did you choose who you fell in love with? I highly doubt that you did. What if I were to condemn the love that you felt for your wife/husband and said that it was unnatural? You would fight that, saying that I'm wrong. Why is it any different for someone who loves someone of the same sex?
And in my comment I said "Many religious people oppose religion saying it's unnatural" I meant to say many religious people oppose homosexuality, excuse me.
I respect your opinion, I just see things differently.
James, I deal with a food addiction. I love food, but it will take me down. Just like you there are times I cry and get so depressed about what I have become because of my love for food, that I don't know what to do. I am currently working on that addiction and with God's help I will overcome my love for food. Where do you draw the line? What about someone who naturally loves children, what about a love for animals, what about a love for anything you can't help. Where is the line? Mine is in the Bible.
The deeper I go into these blog posts the more amazed I am at the jumps you make in your reasoning. You quote Scriptures that talk about God's sovereignty over all things, and then you make a claim that if you believe the Bible to be true, then you have to believe that God is the author of sin--and that all bad things are pre-determined by him--and the bible makes neither of those claims--nor does it assert anything near to them.
The Bible clearly states that God created everything good (Genesis 1), and that he originally created humanity with free will (not as robots, but out of his love giving them the ability to choose loyalty to his lordship or an autonomous existence apart from him); and it makes it clear in Genesis 3 that humanity chose against God. It was at this point that humanity lost "free will."
Nowhere in Scripture after this point does it talk about humanity having "free will." According to Martin Luther, summing up the ideas of Scripture on this subject, the "will of humanity is now in bondage to sin." It's impossible not to sin. If our will were ultimately free, we would be able to not sin. But, as a result of our nature as human beings, we all sin. I know you may try to deny this, but even a phrase used by everyone from Christians to atheists--"Nobody's perfect"--couples with our individual intrisic understanding of our own fallenness to prove to us that we all sin. Again, you may deny sin, because you deny any objective reality in the universe (outside of your own claims to objectivity in your pursuit as a "free-thinker" for your own version of truth). Regardless, God is not the author of sin, nor does he perpetuate sin or temptation, these are both extremely clear themes from Scripture.
How do we balance God's sovereignty with sin's presence in our world? We realize that sin's presence and the cumulative effect of it over the millenium have produced a pretty screwed up world--a world that God has set to fix and make right--not a world in which he continues to perpetuate the brokenness we experience by pre-determining more sinful acts that we bring upon ourselves. Do you understand this? God gave us the power to choose--and we jacked the world up. This doesn't mean HE now ordains evil.
Evil is in the world--that is a fact--yet in God's sovereignty he decided to do something about it--he sent Jesus to die so that all who believe in him would experience salvation.
Now, when it comes to "election," that's another doctrine we could talk about--but Scripture is clear, people are predestined and chosen according to God's plan. "That's not fair!" may be our first inclination in response to that Scriptural truth--but what's "fair"? What's not fair is that God in his compassionate wisdom and grace chooses to save anyone. Rebels who have denied him and shake their indignant fists in his face don't deserve salvation--but the beauty of the truth from Scripture is that God still saves some by his grace.
Romans 9:11-22
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? ... Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.
Ephesian 1:4-5
He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.
2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.
Jude 4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation.
Awesome Mike--very good. I can see by the Scriptures you have posted here that you want to talk about election. Now, as I begin this post let me say that what you will hear here may upset you, but it would probably just as much upset a lot of the Christian people you've known--take it from someone who talks to a lot of Christians about these topics.
The Scriptures you have quoted talk about God's sovereignty and the fact that he chooses people and saves them. This is completely biblical, as you have seen. This is called the doctrine of election.
"So, God chooses some and saves them and doesn't save others?"
Yeah.
Now, as human beings who have this idea that we are sovereign and that each of us controls our own destiny and that ultimately we are totally "free" to choose and we can take it or leave it if we want God---this doctrine doesn't sit well. Because for crying out loud--we're in charge! This idea isn't just something perpetuated by people outside the church, it's probably more rampant in the church. We've re-fashioned a false image of God--making him out to be this wishy-washy lovey-dovey "take me or leave me, but I still think you're great, and I'm here if you ever want to give me a shot..." type of god--but that's not the God of the Bible.
If we're of the opinion that God should yield to our sovereignty as humans--then we're going to look at the God of the Bible and scoff--because he is sovereign and he doesn't share that power. I love that you quoted Romans 9--that's one of my favorite chapters in Scripture--not that it's easy to stomach, but it shows that aspect of God so well. Romans 1 and other places talk about how we as humans don't like this fact, and though even creation shows us the power of God, we deny that and presume to be gods ourselves--and that's why we don't accept who God is.
Look at the end of that Romans 9 passage you quoted--it says how God "endured with longsuffering" those who would deny him and in the end be "vessels of wrath." This shows another aspect of his character. Although we have denied him and rebelled against him--he is patient with us (2 Peter 3 talks about this as well) and through his compassion and grace is giving us an opportunity to accept his grace. But not everyone does--in fact--the majority don't. Yet God is gracious and he does save some.
The amazing thing is not that some don't get saved, as I said before, the amazing thing is that ANY get saved. Think about it man--if you created human beings in your image and you gave them paradise and it was all good--and they used the freedom you gave them to rebel against your will and do evil--and they produced other humans in that same sinful nature--what's more incredible--the fact that some of them receive the wrath they deserve as rebel's against the sovereign God; OR; the fact that you sent your Son into the world, made him to "be sin" for rebellious humanity on the cross (2 Corinthians 5:21); and then in your grace chose many of these rebels to save?
That's the incredible part--that he has been so longsuffering as to put up with rebellious humanity and save some.
He's in control man--the Bible makes no claim to the opposite. He's sovereign, he's in charge. It's hilarious to me how many people--especially Christians--balk at this doctrine of predestination and election because "it's not fair?!"
What the heck is "fair"???! Do you define that? Do I define that? Just because we can't stomach the God of the Bible, doesn't give us (I'm talking to Christians here as much as anyone else) the right to re-form and re-fashion the God of creation into a tame little image that we can stitch on our pillows and advertise on our lame little bumper stickers.
Seriously Mike--I love where you're critical thinking through Scripture is taking you. You're not willing to accept the false image of the republican-voting, Oklahoma-living, TV-evangelist supporting, miracle-in-a-bottle weakling of a god (small "g" accentuated) that our culture thinks reflects Scripture. That is NOT the God of the Bible. He's good, He's true, but He's not tame; and he doesn't share ultimate power with anyone.
Understandable. My premise of this post, however, is that if god is attributed responsibility for the good things that happen in the world, he must also be equally responsible for the bad. It is the picking and choosing that I don't understand.
And as far as you're claims about the Bible, since I don't believe in their sanctity nor validity, they mean no more to me than the Koran or the Book of Mormon... similarly as those books have no intrinsic value to you.
So what if God is ultimately responsible for the bad? As Creator, the buck stops there. So what? Do we premise our acknowledgment of Almighty God on our finite power to understand? Not that we have no understanding, but we are talking about a transcendant, multidimensional person far and away beyond complete human comprehension, by definition. So it's more complicated than just saying "God made it all, so God's responsible for sin too, and people are off the hook." God's not that stupid.
So if Scripture holds no sway with a person, there are 2 routes through the darkness...1:natural revelation, logic, intuition, trial and error, whatever your senses and your mind can discover and verify. This method is not likely to lead to understanding dimensions of reality beyond themselves, but are of value. 2: study the trustworthiness of given revelation (i.e. Bible, Koran, other writings for which divine inspiration is claimed)to discover extra-sensory sources of knowledge and if any are found, these can be used to inform the mind, heart, experience and senses of things that are beyond exhaustive understanding with the limited faculty of the human being. But we had better be prepared to square the circle, and live with paradox, because this is often the only way to get beyond the categories of knowledge we allow for secular levels of "common knowledge". The prophet Isaiah said "Truly, you are a God who hides himself" and quotes Him as saying "I am that I am, there is no other. I have not spoken in secret from somewhere in a land of darkness: I have not said to Jacob's descendants, 'Seek me in vain.' I, that Am, speak the truth; I declare what is right." The prerequisite, as Jesus taught, to finding is seeking. But it must be with all our heart. I'm talking about something really worth finding. Happy hunting.
To make things clear, I never said I understood anything. That is the whole premise of agnosticism. I don't know, and I'm willing to admit it. You are the one who is claiming to know exactly what he wants and kinda knows the 'guy' on a personal basis.
I'm only speaking out of my personal experience and of what I've witnessed. I don't (didn't)claim perfect understanding or exact knowledge. But I have affirmed and have had affirmed for me premises that have worn well for me. If we're all just islands of untouchable subjectivity what's the point of talking it over? A fundamental assumption that I have is that knowledge and understanding is real and can be had and known and shared in some way.
Very understandable. My premise, however, is that all contexts of understanding transcendent reality are equally as valid and equally effective. I do also have to agree with you that knowledge and understanding is authentic and also that it can be shared. All I am concerned about is when religion inhibits rationality and understanding about the physical world, attempts to impose it on others, and thwart scientific development. This is extremely evident in our society and quite possibly could become a significant problem if not addressed and subjected to scrutiny.
Perhaps there is an ambiguity in the term 'transcendent'. I don't follow the logic of your first premise in the most recent post. For example, Mohammed Atta's context or Jim Jones' context don't strike me as being equally valid or effective as Blaise Pascal's or Abraham Lincoln's. I share your concern about religion inhibiting rationality and understanding about the physical world(in my mind it is contiguous and seamless with the 'transcendent reality', but not identical). Rationality is inhibited by prejudicial attitudes that exist universally in humans, whether we consider ourselves religious or scientific or even perfectly objective. It's like the golden fleece. Religion can just be a
convenient whipping boy to advocate a dogmatic attitude disguised as scientific objectivity, just as easily as heterodoxy or scientific inquiry can be accused of being witchcraft by the religiously robed in order to garner or maintain power or influence. Sometimes religion is used to thwart change that threatens the authorities, as when the Taliban destroy the girls schools Greg Mortenson built in Pakistan, or Islamists blow up bystanders, including Muslim children. Sometimes the advocates of science for science sake neglect legitimate ethical issues, for example in the areas of stem cell research, euthanasia or partial birth abortion that undermine more humane and possibly even more profitable scientific developments. Rationality is itself limited by the physical world it attempts to control and comprehend, and is deceivable. Intellectual abuse is an equal opportunity employer. Religion is like Heisenburg's Uncertainty Principle. It is a fundamental property of being. All human's are physical and metaphysical...hardware and software. It is our challenge to parse our way through this hall of mirrors, and who decides who gets to scrutinize and impose what on whom? We are so fortunate to be able to pursue our inquiries. I hope we can make it count for those who don't have that luxury. For now, I can only say Good night, and I hope your mother had a happy day. :)
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